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Hawkeye Initiative Versus Ben: Round 2!


On 07/25/2013 at 01:23 AM by BrokenH

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"I'm sorry,truly!"

Disclaimer: For those of you who are my friends from pixlbit, twitter, and face book this does not apply to you. You guys are generally awesome and make me feel at home and welcome even if our opinions and beliefs do not always synch up.

It’s a crying shame that not every place on the internet is so “friendly”. After reading some craziness and tumblr I responded to it and lost a lot of faith in humanity while doing so.

Yes, this is about all that pervasive “Hawkeye initiative stuff“ again! Playful satire to some and political agenda to others! I am sorry, truly. Just let me purge this from my system as you get to delight in my lucid late night madness!

"Stop it. Please,don't make me "hate" feminism due to your bad example. I'm already a skeptic as it is!"

My reply

"So because I’m white and male I cannot have an opinion? Careful, that’s like a Nazi telling a Jewish person "Get in line and shut up!" When oppressing any group the first step is silencing them and dismissing the importance of their point of view. It’s the equivalent of me telling a woman to close her trap and make me a sandwich.

Look, not all white males have “privilege". For example, I’m a pedestrian because I’m too poor to own a car, I’m on disability, and my income is roughly $700.00 monthly. (Aka,We’re all unique individuals.)

Though not in every instance, it’s often a “privileged white female" from a college or university screaming at other people to check their own privilege.

Stop making snap assumptions about people based on their gender and skin color,ladies. If you insist on thinking of yourself as “educated" don’t stoop to the mob mentality of a hate group."

~Me

"Imagine Morgan Freeman is reading this out loud for extra classy factor!"

I know regardless of how well I represent this argument, someone is going to try their best to poke holes into it. At the very best I may learn something new from someone who replies because of this but I expect many more angry comments that use broad sweeping generalizations.

To get something right off the bat right away I am NOT an MRA. If labeling me as such makes you feel good and tingly inside go ahead! However, it still will not magically become a true fact just because you believe in it. Don’t get me wrong. I think men have a right to fight for their freedoms just like any other group of people. However, as an egalitarian it’s my goal to build up humanity as a whole without favoring one particular fringe group over the others. (For that reason I’m not a feminist either. Yes, feminist claim to fight for equality for both genders yet it irks me they use a word that totally excludes one of them. There’s something very insincere about that.)

Let me cut straight to the issue. I do have a serious problem with the Hawkeye initiative. Not because the parody art I’ve seen is an utter waste of time (Got a laugh out of many of them. Oh Hawkie, you so fine you blow my mind, hey Hawkie! Clap! Clap! Clap!) but because it’s a veiled attempt into shaming artists into changing the way they draw based on the ideals of one group of very vocal people.

I know someone is going to come at me talking about sexism, broken spines, ass shots, boob shots, and how comic books really need to change. I will not argue with that. However, I think comic books can change without excluding anyone. If there’s a group of people wanting to portray women in a sexy and exaggerated way by all means, let them do so! If you do not like it, don’t buy those books and support the books that portray women in a way you do approve of.

Furthermore, consider getting into comic books yourself. No, I don’t mean simply doing parody doodles from the side lines safely outside the nerd zone within your own safe bubble where everyone agrees with you. I mean jumping into the fray to make your own comic book! Yes, it’ll be hard work. Yes, it may take awhile to get it published. However, if you work diligently and improve over time you will get the right kind of attention!

Anyway, I want to give my viewpoints on what has already been argued. I’ve broken down the points below.

Women are drawn to be sexy, men are drawn to be strong!  

Whenever a poor hapless nerd tries to defend his stance by saying “Men are objectified and drawn out of proportion too!” the inevitable reply will be “Yeah, but men are drawn to be power fantasies where women are drawn to be sexual fantasies!” Part of that later response rings true. Be that as it may, what defines “attractiveness” for each gender varies.

For men, strength, influential power, and wealth equates to sexuality. Yes, I can arch my back and shake my ass as a dude while wearing spandex but in truth the main reaction I will get is being laughed at. This is because men are held to a different set of rules than women are. (Just to be clear, this relates to straight men. The divine favors the gay man. He can be more cheeky and saucy while getting away with it!)

Assuming I started to work out in the gym and assuming I started to drive around in a nice car, women would pay more attention to me. Oh, you can try to deny it of course. You can say “I’m not into muscle heads” or “Dudes with cars like that are going through a midlife crisis!”. Yet if you’re a heterosexual woman deep down you will feel a draw to the kind of man I just described. Aka, women are attracted to Bruce Wayne. He’s physically fit, he’s rich, he’s smart, he’s handsome, and he’s somewhat mysterious. If Batman did feminine sexy poses all the time while smirking he would be a joke character. For male characters in comics, standing up tall, crouching in the shadows, or flexing their arm muscles is the equivalent of the boob shot or the ass shot. Their epic posturing proves that they can easily fulfill the roles of protectors, lovers,conquerors,laborers, and providers.

So why then does Selena Kyle get away with being the sexy snark? For one thing, Selena Kyle always has been sexually promiscuous and a bit of a snark. Two, those “exaggerated poses” actually look graceful, acrobatic, and alluring when she does them because her body is that of a woman’s.

Again, the rules for what is attractive varies between each gender and yes, both men and women are objectified in comic books and both men and women have exaggerated physiques in comics that usually would not hold up in real life. Bruce’s bones would break underneath the weight of his muscle mass and Selena’s back would have to be double jointed to pull off some of Cat woman’s hijinks. No one is arguing this, really. The problem is “The Hawkeye Initiative” is only trying to change how women are portrayed as opposed to trying to change how men are portrayed too.

 This art sucks, it’s not realistic!

While I will admit “classic comic books”  were more believable when it came to physical anatomy, I don’t think they  have EVER strived for photo-realism. Comic books are pure fantasy and to hold them up under the scrutiny of a critical realist lens misses the whole damned point.  Also, there are many artists in this field so luckily you will find something that fits your personal tastes eventually! By the way, opinions are subjective! What you loath another person might love. Just food for thought, aye?

All comics have pinup covers and pander!

I’m not going to say you are a “fake nerd” if you believe Marvel & DC super-hero stories with “hawt vixens” on the covers are the only comic books out there. However, I will call you out for being naïve.

Yes, many of the mainstream comics do in fact “pander”. However, you have choices. Ever heard about Sandman? Books of magic? Preacher? Artesia? Astro city? Watchmen? V for vendetta?  Dawn? Bone? The Maxx? Elf Quest? Witchblade? The Darkness? While I cannot guarantee each of the examples listed here will jive with your pc sensibilities, they will possibly be a breath of fresh air from what you are used to.  A few of these examples do in fact pander here or there but on average they also seem to have much deeper story telling and more original ideas.

I don’t like it, it’s wrong! Censorship and fascism here we come!



You “can” dislike something. No, it doesn’t make it “wrong” by default. Offended by Cat woman’s or Star fire’s promiscuity? Guess what? They’ve always been that way! (I’m talking about comic book continuity, not the Teen Titans cartoon) Insisting characters change to conform with your ideologies is censorship. It’s like saying Huck Finn or Tom Sawyer cannot use the word “nigger” even though at the time and place where those books took place, “nigger” was commonly used. This wasn’t because Mark Twain was racist. Actually, his stories were very anti-racist. However, racism was a big problem in the south so Mark should have the right to put it out there like it was without sugar coating it! Even in real life some women choose to be strippers, porn stars, or simply “sexually liberated” in their day to day activities. What’s next? Telling “real people” how they should act and dress? Get the fuck over yourselves, seriously.

Comic books, a boy’s club?

Look at this filthy man pig smiling away! Subversive misogyny I tell you!

When I was growing up I had many friends who drew just like me and wanted to go into comics. Many of those friends were even more talented than myself but the main factor of commonality amongst all of us is that we were all teenaged guys. I wouldn’t meet a female who wanted to be a cartoonist & comic book artist until I went to college and her name was Julie. (Julie was sweet, smart, and pretty. Never had the courage to express how I truly felt about her. Then again, she was also going out with a friend so I did not want to be a relationship wrecker in the first place.)

I hope we can at least agree that some job occupations draw in more of one gender than the other gender. Comic books are not a male dominated industry because of a “no girls” policy. They’re a male dominated industry because it’s mostly men who want to draw comics.

Fortunately, this has not stopped women from going into the comics field. If you want to sit at that table you most certainly can with the right skill sets and a healthy dose of imagination and creativity. The only person stopping you is you. It’s easier to sit around and bitch about how life is unfair but take it from me, it really doesn’t get you anywhere!

Heterosexual male fantasies are DIGUSTING!

Fair enough. I happen to think yaoi, slash fics, 50 shades of grey, and Twilight are somewhat  off putting but I’ll let you wank to yours of you let me wank to mine! If you don’t take my porn away and I will not take your porn away! Fair?

You disagree with us?! MRA scum!

Please refer to the open paragraphs of this blog where I very clearly identify as being an egalitarian, not an MRA. Thank you!


 

Comments

Blake Turner Staff Writer

07/25/2013 at 01:43 AM

Everyone masturbates. That's my philosophy. Don't take away anyones wank material! Except the pedos. And necropheliacs. Actually, leave the necros. Who are they hurting? Unless they kill them then fuck them. But I'm talking about the grave diggers... anyway!

 About homosexuality:

And about the hawkeye initiative. I have nothing against it, or even it's message. Fighting something you disagree with with humour is kind of awesome. Even their message is fine by me. I believe if people want to draw hot women in bikinis, they should go for it. Maybe they should keep it out of the main line of comics though, or at least limit it to hollywood limitations. Sex is fine, but comics are more popular than ever and they do run the risk of offending people who would otherwise want to get into it. I'm just saying mainstream comics should be more careful to cater to both sides, especially with marvel and DC. Image, Dark Horse and everyone else can do whatever the fuck they want, and they do. They have babies getting raped and eaten, so I doubt the mainstream will touch that lol. 

BrokenH

07/25/2013 at 01:56 AM

Gays totally found a loophole in God's "system". (troll face) Lucky bastards!

Can't say I disagree. More mainstream comics with more "female friendly" covers would not hurt anyone. (Then again, that all depends on the comic books in question. Not all them use the same marketing pander techniques. Sadly yeah, there's a large percentage of them that do. Well, it's not entirely sad. I like sexy cheesecake!)

The solution is the same with games. We need a more diversified group of writers and artists to step forward. Aka, women,homosexuals, and transgenders willing to put the serious work in.

While even I get a chuckle out of "The Hawkeye Initiative" it's going to take more than parodying comics with often times crude "fan art" to change the genre drastically.

Blake Turner Staff Writer

07/25/2013 at 02:14 AM

It doesn't need to though. The point of this style of satire is not to force change but to evoke thought and conversation - exactly what it's doing. That and it's fucking hilarious!

BrokenH

07/25/2013 at 02:17 AM

But not all the people contributing to this have their heads on straight,Blake. I didn't blow my top over the initiative by itself.

I'm just tired of being told to shut up because I'm white and male. If I told a feminist to shut up and make a sandwich it would be the same low level of jerk baggery.

I don't know if you noticed or not, but certain fringes of feminism are becoming more militant,more stupid, and less tolerant of others.

Blake Turner Staff Writer

07/25/2013 at 02:21 AM

Certain fringes of everything are stupid. You know why? Because people are stupid. It doesn't matter what they believe, there are always retards out there who seek to give their respective cause a bad name. It happens with every group ever.

BrokenH

07/25/2013 at 02:29 AM

I just have bad experiences with feminists in particular. Well, at least feminists online. I admit that's probably tainted my perception of them somewhat.

However you gotta admit....

Unrealistic portrayals of "fictional" women in comic books=1st world problem! Oh, the humanity,sir! We might as well be in the dark ages ala Game Of Thrones! Winter is coming! Expect nipples popping out through spandex!

Cyberxion

07/25/2013 at 01:46 AM

Eh, I don't think that Starfire actually WAS always portrayed the way that she's been portrayed in the New 52. There, she's like an uber-slut who doesn't really care who she's fucking, as long as she's getting her swerve on.

When I drew back in the day, I'd draw women a little thicker and more realistically proportioned because that's what appealed to me. I love a full-bodied woman with some curves! Even so, I wasn't looking at comic-book women and shitting myself that other folks drew 'em differently, because the fucking world doesn't revolve around me. Too many people seem to lose sight of that fact and try to mold the world into being what they want it to be. Those people must live sad, meaningless lives.

BrokenH

07/25/2013 at 02:01 AM

I know Starfire was always open with her sexuality and exposed a lot of skin. (I believe she absorbs sunlight through her body to fuel her powers & life force) Her being a slut doesn't demean her lovable characteristics in my eyes BUT I hate the fact they gave her amnesia. That's just weak writing. Maybe I've just played too many Jrpgs with that plot device!

 As for your other point, yeah. I think it's wonderful when we have diverse idealogies. I just hate it when one idealogy tries to overwrite all the other ones as if they should not exist at all. Reminds me of the crusades,man. Dark times the crusades!

Cary Woodham

07/25/2013 at 05:19 AM

Hey I see Psylocke again.  I think I like her because she has purple hair.

New blog up for you to read.  Later!

BrokenH

07/25/2013 at 10:01 AM

It's weird Cary because sometimes Psy's hair is blue or black instead. lol. Maybe she dyes it once in awhile. Tongue Out

Chris Yarger Community Manager

07/25/2013 at 07:12 AM

I read this all in Morgan Freeman's voice, and it was splendid.

I'm going to do it again. lol

BrokenH

07/25/2013 at 09:47 AM

Morgan Freeman's voice makes every argument more interesting and more persuasive,Chris. lol.

Alex-C25

07/25/2013 at 07:05 PM

Yeah, you're spot on with your arguments. I think the only time that I would get upset over the things the iniciative is fighting against, would be if the female (and male) characters are portrayed as objects with little to no personality, but other than that, I would gave them an angry look if they go against characters who might be fanservice-ys, but at the same time have lots of personalities and traits. And you're right that, even with what I said, there's no shame in liking a bit of fanservice and you shouldn't tell people what they have to do.

There could be a line on what you can do. I hardly think the comic book issue has a line.

BrokenH

07/25/2013 at 07:58 PM

I simply want a comfortable place where I can enjoy my fantasies in peace. Comic books used to be that oasis.

I mean it's not like I'm storming into Twilight conventions telling everyone how much Twilight sucks. I also don't troll slash fiction writer forums. I can acknowledge though I don't like these things personally, they have a right to exist for the people who do like them. (And yeah, I have friends who enjoy Twilight and slash fics. I don't think less of them for it either)

This stuff is just crazy, Alejandro. Here's hoping it dies off. (Though I will miss some of the funnier Hawkeye parody art. lulz! Guess I should start saving images while I can!)

NSonic79

07/25/2013 at 09:39 PM

The only thing that kind of scares me with those whole deal is that some guy, some where out there, will get it into their head and decide to cosplay like this Hawkeye.

We've already seen the "Man-Faye" from cowboy bebop fame. My fragile mentality might not be able to handle this for it was NOT pretty....

BrokenH

07/25/2013 at 10:01 PM

There's already a guy that's been cosplaying as Hawkeye, ass shot and all. Tongue Out It's wonderful for gay people who like their beefcake. Sadly, I'm straight so this just looks kind of silly to me. Strangely enough, this guy kind of looks like one of my friends from Job Corps. The friend I'm referring to was a jokester so I could totally see him doing something like this. Wink

Cyberxion

07/26/2013 at 10:06 PM

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=635716 - This thread. Oh boy.

Give it a read, Ben. I think you'll find much of interest in it.

EDIT: Playing a videogame in which a woman/women was/were portrayed in a less than ideal manner is no more necessarily reflective of how the player views women than playing a violent videogame is of a desire to commit mass-murder. I sometimes wonder if the folks who make a big deal about this might just be doing so, not because they feel that videogames are going to turn us into women-abusing dicks, but because they want the hobby to be accepted as a form of art and they're worried that stuff like this reflects poorl on it.

How stupid would that be? . 

BrokenH

07/27/2013 at 04:19 AM

I agree 100%, Xion. Beyond that, it's not like I've created a huge movement to mock Twilight and to get it rewritten to fit my personal tastes. I mean I often criticize Twilight but I accept it has the right to exist and I can understand why it means a lot to certain people.

 If I let other people have their fantasies why the hell can't they let me have mine? Even if they are ridiculous & absurd are my little geeky indulgences hurting anyone else?

Btw,linked it for ya! Cool

 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=635716 -

jcal94

07/28/2013 at 05:57 AM

What's really sad here, is how because of "sexiness" is defined differently amongst the genders, that neither group can really get it right in trying for equality in media. Men are more simple-minded, and are turned on by more visual means, whereas women are more swayed by personality, insight, mannerisms, etc. Simply put, most men are turned on by the T&A whereas most women are turned on by the P&M (personality and manners). Sure, women still like guys with money and muscles, but those are the more superficial things that they don't notice at first. Most women notice a man's posture, smile, and personality before they notice his wealth or muscle mass. Same situation for guys. We notice the T&A and curves first, and then notice the personality and all after the fact. There had been many times when I came across a girl with a "bangin bod", and thought it'd be awesome to be with her, but after not even 5 minutes of talking with her, found her to be insufferable. I was attracted to her by her body, and still find it sexy, but wouldn't plan on getting in that mess.

When me and my girlfriend are talking sweet to each other, and the topic of what makes the person sexy to the other one, it always ends up the same way: her saying things such as my "brown cow eyes", my personality, how I'm sweet and caring, etc, whereas I end up saying things like her curves, her butt, her chest, and then throw in some of the more girl-centered things such as personality and eyes so I don't get femi-nazi'd (it's the one downside to the relationship. Her mother is a true Norma Bates in every since of the name.). That's the perfect example in the differences of what men and women find sexy.

The question that should be asked to all the feminists big on the "how do you like this guy sexualized?" thing are beating a dead horse with a hair, it's that useless. Of course us heterosexual men will laugh at the depiction, because we think it looks ridiculous, AND women would all think it's ridiculous too. But look at the sexualized females on covers, and while women may not like them, it does appeal to men. Women need to be comfortable in their own skins and realize the difference between fantasy and reality, and use their brains and actually see if a male character would have the non-visuable traits that make them sexy to women before bashing everything. The one problem is most women are attracted to the same type of inner-being, whereas men have a wider range of physical attributes to pick from. I prefer slim women with conservatively-sized breasts and butts, whereas the guy next door could like his BBWs with F-cups.

Honestly, for most of these modern comics, the women are too muscular, busty, and have too big of butts to draw my interest, hence why I do prefer manga. The women in there slimmer and there is a much wider variety of body types in their, and of course cute faces compared to the more and more manish faces on women in western comics.

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