PixlBit

I don't know why Rockstar cannot do a decent GTA game about an undercover cop. That way you could be a good guy who takes down the big crime boss yet before then you'd still have to do "fun criminal shenanigans" just to avoid suspicion! Maybe tie in a tragic backstory were the crime boss and cop were friends during their tour in Vietnam or Afghanistan yet they chose very different paths. Perhaps even have a female love interest who is torn between them. 

 I understand Rockstar sort of picked up the rights to Max Payne but wasn't the last MP game still linear compared to GTA?

Max Payne 3 was linear compared to Uncharted. There's not much leeway in how you approach encounters, it's more about looking cool while shooting people in slow motion.

That's too bad. Personally I'd be more willing to play an undercover cop sand-box game than the usual "I'm a gangsta bad ass" story.

Well,at least there's Sleeping Dogs,aye? I'm still curious about it and Red Dead Redemption. GTA 5 not so much! 

I was about to say, Ben, you know that game has already been made, right? Sleeping Dogs. The Getaway 2. Honestly, I'd like to see another Getaway game. I liked that he was forced to do the things he did because if he didn't, his son would be dead. It gave motivation and made you feel for him, while still allowing you to do crazy shit.

Wasn't that L.A. Noire?

In general, the depiction of cops as either purely cannon fodder, like in GTA, or incompetent (most superhero media I'm privy to), has always been bothersome to me on some level. 

That's not to say there aren't asshole cops or soldiers that arguably deserve their bad press (Nevada policeman kicking a man in diabetic shock in the head, presuming he must be drunk; Abu Ghraib photos), but I tend to think the good and awesome far outweighs the bad. Yet the fact I knew off the top of my head a couple bad examples from media, and had to go searching for good apples, says something about how public service members can be portrayed in media.

Well, moreso cops. I'd honestly tend to argue U.S. soldiers are fairly well-liked by the general public, especially when compared to cops, but that's simply my perception. Since I'm in a media research class, this topic might actually be helpful to me in coming up with some research ideas. 

But I understand where you're coming from. While legitimate cases of corruption exist, I can certainly see how media depictions of cops as simply drones in the way of the goals of more fleshed-out characters, or worse, can serve to permeate the idea that those sworn to protect and serve are simply there to fuck up your day or your life, which isn't really the case. 

It's a shame there isn't more out there like End of Watch, which is both a really good movie (imo), and depicts the heroism and sacrifice of police officers, but never attempts to advertise that such people are perfect, either. It comes across as real and respectful, rather than a PSA for cops that turns them into superheroes for people to roll their eyes at, and I think stuff like that is needed. 

Having said that, I am planning on playing a lot of GTA once I install the games from the "Complete Pack" I bought, and I believe in the ability of mature audiences to separate fiction from reality. Still, that "mature" factor is a pretty important variable, and those in public service do deserve better than what they generally get from media. 

My bad for the blog in a blog, but I'm going to bed, so no more rambling from me for a while. Always dig how Carlin's humor utilizes the English language and its usage. 

Yeah, I know the military gets a good portrayal in media. In this game though, they're just cannon fodder.

Explore this idea for your class: Military are generally more respected because A. The general public has little interaction with them while they are on duty B. They have a higher level of martial skill, which earns respect. I've had this discussion with various civilian and criminal elements. People put up with police brutality because they are afriad of the severe charges that comes with "resisting arrest" and "assaulting an officer," Otherwise they reckon they could "put them in their place." It's an interesting dynamic, all of this.  Shit's going to get real one day. Everyone needs to cool out.

That, and the military are always thought to be protecting, where there is a history of media portrayals of corrupt cops. Like you said, we interact with soldiers less, and typically only when they're off duty, so they're not having to say "no" to civilians all the time. From working in Residence Life, I know how easily telling someone "no," even for their safety, puts you on their shit list.

Thanks for the suggestions, I might use them if I don't go with a couple other ideas.

Greenman: I gotcha.

Tactically, it's practical to take the battle to the police once the jig is up. Fleeing isn't really an option, as that just gives able bodies time to call in roadblocks, helicopter, shoot the suspects in the back, etc. It's better to incapacitate the first responders as quickly as possible, then make a getaway. Only problem (but not really, since it's a game and repetition is part of the package) is that criminals would not get themselves into such situations after surviving the first.  They would keep as low a profile as possible, possibly flee to a non-extradition treaty country.

When the choice is between jail/death or freedom, police become mere obstacles, armed agressors, to a lawbreaker. Michael was a bank robber, it's plausible that he has no quams about killing police, who he would see as equals and opposition to his interests. Kidnapping someone's wife isn't in the same ethical ballpark, as she is not an equal participant in the game of violence.

Franklin going from repo man to cop killer is harder to swallow. But he's also a banger, and bangers have a notorious lack of empathy for law enforcement.

Trevor is a psychopath who acts outside the bounds of criminal codes. It is plausible that Michael and Trevor would find some of his acts beyond the pale, but fighting police is within the bounaries of those codes.

It think it is a stretch to expect criminals, who are ultimately selfish and anti-social no matter how relatively mild they may be, to give any consideration to the well being of police, beyond assessing the risk-reward of removing immediate obstacles vs. severe criminal charges if unsuccessful.

Ultimately, the universe is indifferent to man and his codes, rules, and laws. Everyone is fair game once they draw their guns.

P.S. Keep in mind, these games love to emulate the shootout scene from Heat, but because of the demands of the video game medium, they can't supply the same context.  The bank robbery in Heat was a botched job, otherwise DeNiro's team -who were more stone-cold than the guys in GTA5- would never get themselves into that kind of situation, and certainly wouldn't keep repeating it over and over.

Those are true, but there are two reasons I still take issue. The first is that Rockstar isn't writing those kinds of criminals. They write Franklin and Michael to be relatable to GTA players. They write them so despite their criminal actions, they're not that different from the average person. They'll still act disgusted at some of the other, but less fucked up shit that Trevor does. It's bizarre when Michael asks why the hell Trevor would kidnap someone then have no second thought at mowing down cops.

You could say it's a stretch, but every criminal is different. And when looking at which criminological theories best reflect Michael and Franklin, it is more of a stretch. Crime isn't as simple as that. The story portrays Michael being involved with crime and Franklin having blocked opportunities, which are much less inclined to kill that many people (cops or not), especially when they're portrayed as compassionate (relatively speaking) as Rockstar set out. They're not saints, but we're still supposed to be left with this idea that they are good guys at the end of the day.

The second is that these things aren't that they suddenly happen. It's that they are planned from the start. Michael and Trevor plan to defend an area from waves of cops and to put on all this riot gear so they can mow down waves of cops. It's not a fight or flight scenario, it's a let's start slaughtering almost a hundred people for a score then pretend two of us are still nice, relatable guys just because we're with this other asshole. It doesn't even reflect Michael's character that well planning it, he's not usually wants to shoot things as part of a heist unless that's the only choice, from a save your skin perspective.

That's a mistake on Rockstar's part then. Either go all the way and make them hardened criminals and convey the gulf that lies between them and the average person/player, or don't have them getting into those situations. See, making characters "sympathetic" does not mean you have to make them good people. It just means they are well developed enough to be believable and recognizable as complex individuals. Even Tarantino got that right in Reservoir Dogs (and notice that the most sociopathic character is the only one to get killed by the hero). In the DVD commentary for Heat, the director Michael Mann points out that DeNiro's character is a sociopath. Rockstar still has a few things they need to learn about writing and narrative consistency. And people wonder why I'm such a harsh critic of video game stories. It's because they get praise even though they miss some of the most basic fundamentals of writing and characterization.

Good topic, good discussion dude.

So glad you brought up Reservoir Dogs. Mr. Pink talking why he doesn't tip, that's relatable. We can all see where he's coming from. We may not agree with it, but it makes him more human yet doesn't take away that he's a sleezeball. Tarantino gets criminals, he has them justify what they do in their own fucked up way, which Rockstar doesn't do as well.

Alright. I have a new game idea. Cannibal Cops. The twist is that you play as one of them kinda like Stubbs the Zombie. You're initially controlled by a central intelligence agency and used to keep law and order, only at some point you break your programming and wonder if consuming villains is ok or not. In another twist, you end up thinking it IS ok and gobble someone down. The scene results in a lot of controversy online and we all discuss whether or not first person cannibalism in a game is appropriate.

Back to your regually scheduled program: I never was attracted to the GTA games for just your concerns. It always made me uncomfortable to be a bad guy in a game or shoot police. Duke Nukem's LARD pig aliens (get it. LAPD, LARD) also kind of bothered me along those same lines... um... but I still played that one.

It's an appealing fantasy to be the guy to break the rules or misbehaive. It's also great fodder for media of all sorts. Gangster movies in the 30's used to draw a lot of controversy. People thought it glorified gangsters and their lifestyle. Well, it does, but a movie is arguably not a huge influence to act out in real life. Same with games. A few people do act out, but they are very few. So some people like the bad guy fantasy, it's just not me. 

I like the idea of playing as a bad guy, but don't give me this bullshit that this guy's relatable then have him do all this fucked up shit.

I get what you mean.

"They're portrayed as people who did not turn to crime because they get off on it, but because they do not feel like they had the same opportunities." Michael gets off on it. He says he never had certain oppurtunities, but he did. He tries to mask his reasons, but he's pretty damn messed up. He likes killing. Franklin looks up to him as a father figure because he doesn't really have one, and Michaels values rub off on him.

 Yeah, the game has you killing police officers, because the theme of the game is taking the american dream to extremes. No, police officers aren't shown as good people, but no one in the game is. NO ONE. EVERYONE IS EVIL! Absolutely everyone. The cops are evil. The criminals are evil. The children are evil. No one is a good person in this game. The objective is killing cops. The objective is also killing dock workers, other criminals, people who work in banks and random pedestrians. Why? Because the only solution to any problem in the game is murder or violence. The only solutions are the most extreme solutions. 

 So yeah, it may have a bit of a problem with the police, but that comes with the genre. It's crime entertainment that makes you play as the criminal. Do you really think caring about police officers is fits their character, especially when they give no shits about anyone else? 

Ha Ha! That's funny. Everyone is evil in GTA. Right on.

I don't really agree with that portrayal of Michael. I think he gets off on success, on having a purpose and crime is his outlet for that. There's a huge difference between that and getting off on crime. And they don't really kill all kinds of people until they get threatened in the missions. Yeah, there's that chaos in the sandbox, but that I think is another weak link in Rockstar's story, even if it makes the game itself more fun. It's another reason I think GTA should have stuck with the sillier stories even if this isn't as bad as IV was in this regard.

And yeah, the cops are pointing guns at them, but they plan it that way. And I'm sorry, but that's just bad writing. Saying these guys are relatable in one cutscene then mowing down wave after wave of cops in another? Sorry, that's bad writing. Franklin may roll along with what's going on, but he will voice when he thinks something's fucked up. Not a word when he hears they're going to be murdering a hundred cops, but he'll speak over taking pictures of celebrities. Again, that's not thinking things through when you write.

You can say they don't give two shits about anyone else, but they don't give two shits about people who fuck with them. And that's a big difference too. You can choose to kill innocent people, but the game always gives you a choice. If they really didn't give two shits, why even offer that choice? 

Yeah they should make a GTA game where you get to be a good guy police officer.  I'm sure they already have done that, but they're probably too gritty and serious for me.  So I'll just go back to playing Mappy.

i've been pretty disappointed with GTA in a lot of ways -- i mean, it's a good game.  but i think A LOT of its attitudes are pretty disturbing.  I never considered the cops as cannon fodder thing, but that has been true in all of them I guess.  I think in some degree, people enjoy that you get to take on authority like u do in these games.  I enjoy a police car chase in GTA as much as the next guy, but you're right, these are massacres going on. 

I just found GTA very adolescent in a lot of ways, and while I enjoyed the old games, these recent titles just seem blah to me.  I appreciate that they are impressive in some ways, but their themes and attitudes don't do it for me anymore.  Maybe I'm just getting old though....

I plan to start my rental copy of this for the weekend. It's been hard for me to get into the series due to either sloppy game mechanics or design here or there or the fact that I prefer to play good guys. 

Didn't know about your plans for police academy. Good luck on that, sir!

I want to chalk it up as a sign of the times though that's just from my standpoint. Sadly when you think of cops or military the first thing that might pop into the minds of most people is corruption, abuse of authority, never around when you need them performing mass murder or overstepping their bounds during a time of war. I get what you mean when you say it bugs you (myself coming from a background in Police Science, NOT Police Justice) yet at the same time I can't help but remember many years back when people were making a big fuss out of the Terminator 2 coin-op game where it has a level that has you shooting at LAPD officers and SWAT. Not only was that not done in the movie but some officers felt like it was a cop killer simulator.

Eventually it all died down when we all realized it was only a game. I'm with you that the police and military could use some more respect. and in the majority of other forms of media they do get such. I still respect them myself but at the same time I can't help but say that like before this is only a game. And in past GTA titles the police acted more like bullet sponges than how an average police officer would react if you were shooting at them with a full auto weapon: They'd be taking cover with that "I don't get paid enough" look on their faces than charging at you like some suicidle lemming.