OH NO! I posted an awesome response to this, and now it's gone. :( I just realized there was an error when I went to post, and that made the post "gone."
Grr.
Nick and Luke Ramble About Third Parties and Gaming at Large
The following is a conversation between Nick and Luke in response to a NeoGaf thread regarding third parties.
The following conversation is in its raw form. We wanted to capture it as such because it started and ended very organically.
Luke: Neogaf has a discussion going about why 3rd party games fail on the Wii.
Luke: bigger picture is most 3rd party games fail on all consoles
Nick: yup
Nick: want to know why they fail? the gaming media
Nick: they hate the wii, so their readers who would buy those games hate the wii, and as a result, no sales
Nick: wii failure would be a self-fulfilling prophecy if it weren't for the blue ocean
Nick: just like the GameCube failure, self-fulfilling prophecy
Nick: gaming media wanted failure, and failure is what they got
Luke: yeah
Luke: and 360 is slowing down fast
Nick: They wanted the Xbox to be a strong competitor to the PS2, what happened there?
Luke: true
Luke: and gamecube wasn't much different to the PS2 and Xbox
Nick: nope, not at all
Nick: iirc the cube was pretty easy to develop for
Luke: so is the Wii
Nick: yup
Luke: just need to use TEV for shaders
Luke: IMO MS is doing the PS2 strategy but worse
Luke: by worse making peripherals expensive as hell and killing most first party houses
Nick: the PS2 strategy is the Wii strategy with a different market
Nick: a market that was once blue ocean
Nick: but is now red ocean
Nick: high school to college aged males
Luke: yeah
Luke: all i say fuck it, consoles should appeal to all ages
Luke: the games available on them appeal to atleast someone
Nick: well the thing is, each console really needs to find its place in the market
Nick: Sony and Microsoft are vying for the same market space
Luke: yup
Luke: and sony is creeping up fast
Luke: and sony has one big advantage that microsoft is killing off
Luke: sony's advantage is nintendo's advantage
Nick: MS doesn't need to appeal to everyone, they just need to figure out how to appeal the most to the given market
Luke: i think you know what advantage I'm talking about
Nick: which is why they are floundering
Luke: first party
Luke: nintendo's and sony's first party dev houses kick major ass this generation
Luke: Microsoft has Rare and .....Turn 10
Nick: I agree, but I bet many gamers this gen would trade Halo for all of the great stuff anyone else has done
Luke: here is the thing nick
Luke: Bungie is now a LLC
Nick: irrelevant
Nick: MS still owns the property
Luke: true
Nick: and they have some ownership over other things Bungie makes
Nick: or at least first choice at them
Luke: yeah
Nick: what I will say is this
Nick: MS is failing because they are trying to appeal to a market that they don't know how to appeal to
Luke: agree
Nick: everything they are currently doing is a kneejerk reaction to the Wii's success
Nick: MS is an imitator company, not an innovator
Luke: in a way the Sony wands is much more appealing
Luke: remember what capcom said?
Luke: Japanese developers have no idea what to do with Natal and they are happy with Sony's wand because they can port Wii stuff easy to PS3
Nick: yeah, and im sure that is good for Sony
Nick: I think Sony has potential to take a lot of marketshare back because people in general have history with Sony
Luke: and microsoft is trying camera tech for the second time
Luke: yup
Luke: Nintendo and PlayStation have a legit fanbase
Luke: Xbox? not really
Nick: I think they do, but I think it's a lot smaller than it seems
Nick: a lot of it is comprised of Sony exiles
Luke: and MS did a great job driving away rare fans that flocked to 360
Luke: lol
Nick: who will return to Sony
Nick: this is true
Luke: i think you are one of those disgruntled rare fans
Nick: I don't like where the company is currently going, especially as of late, but I think I've enjoyed everything they've done this gen
Luke: I agree, it seems like Microsoft is trying to make Rare into a soulless Nintendo like developer.
Nick: I think that's definitely true, and it's definitely a futile effort
Nick: Rare is not Nintendo, and Rare I think requires the direction of someone like Nintendo to be successful
Nick: while I've enjoyed what they've done this gen, that Nintendo polish that once existed is gone
Luke: Especially how Molyneux is supposedly trying to give Rare an identity. After Fabe II I don't trust anything that Molyneux says or develops.
Nick: lol
Nick: Molyneux is not my favorite entity in the gaming world either
Luke: I think Microsoft tries to make Rare into Nintendo because Rare worked with Nintendo before and Microsoft obviously wants to capture Nintendo's success with appealing to the mass market
Nick: definitely
Nick: the thing is, they aren't going to ever capture that market
Nick: because it isn't the overall market of their machine
Nick: people don't buy an Xbox 360 to play Nintendo-like games, they buy a Wii to play the real deal
Luke: Yeah and if you noticed Rare titles flourished on Nintendo platforms even Diddy Kong Racing DS managed to sell a million worldwide. On Microsoft platforms Rare titles are a mild success at best.
Nick: yup
Nick: I just wish Microsoft would cut them loose
Nick: but after they release Perfect Dark XBLA :P
Luke: I think part of the problem is that Microsoft doesn't have a dedicated fan base outside of Halo while Nintendo has one, Sony has one, and heck there is still a strong Sega following
Nick: yeah I think that's true as well, Halo is Microsoft's only true first party property
Nick: everything else is pretty worthless in the big picture
Luke: I agree and I think the the 360 will be in third place when this generation is done and over with
Nick: but Microsoft's failure will be chasing Nintendo's market, they need to channel that Halo energy and make something else for their fans to eat up
Nick: it's no different than what Nintendo or Sony have done in the past
Nick: however, I think it is going to take them finishing in last this generation to realize that
Luke: In a way I disagree because look at all the Halo stuff there is this generation: Halo 3, ODST, Halo Reach, the Halo Anime (even on blu-ray, a format that the 360 can't play HA!)
Nick: well I'm not saying they should make any more or less Halo shit
Nick: there is already tons of that
Nick: but they need to bring their fans over to something else new
Luke: That's Microsoft's problem, all Microsoft cares about is they "steal" franchises that were predominantly on Sony or Nintendo systems
Luke: and try to make the franchise's home on 360
Nick: yup, they think buying exclusivity is the answer
Nick: but once those contracts run out, they are all going to port
Nick: I'm not saying exclusivity is not a strategy that could work, but it's a band-aid not a cure
Luke: It's not even that, they only care about time exclusives at this point or exclusive downloadable content
Nick: right
Nick: I'll be interested to see what Microsoft does next generation
Nick: I'm sure they think that Natal is their answer, but I have a feeling it's going to flop hard
Luke: if it's pushing "controller-less gaming" I think it will fail hard
Nick: agreed
Nick: I'll be interested to see in general where next generation goes
Luke: just look at how people enjoy peripherals
Nick: yeah, even on the wii where it's not even really a true peripheral
Luke: right
Nick: just a piece of plastic molded to look like something else
Nick: i mean that may be the answer for MS, plastic peripherals, but feedback is crucial to gaming
Luke: I personally enjoyed the Wii Wheel and Wii Zapper but I hate those stupid sport attachments
Nick: lol
Nick: I actually dislike the wii wheel due to it's lack of feedback
Luke: Wii Wheel gave me a better grip on stuff like Excitebots and the Zapper I like because it makes aiming a little more steadier
Nick: yeah the zapper is just something that should make it more comfortable to use the remote given a particular application
Luke: and even if you dislike Nintendo's version of the gun shell there are a couple of good 3rd party alternatives................and a bunch of abysmal ones
Nick: indeed there are
Nick: a BUNCH
Luke: But I think there is a reason why people will want controllers since they enjoy feedback. With stuff like Rock Band people actually want to feel like Rock Stars playing the instruments. And the new Tony Hawk board even if it doesn't appeal to me much, people will like it since they will be able to emulate pro skating tricks at home
Nick: yup, and there is a ton of value in that
Nick: now don't get me wrong
Nick: I think Natal will have some really awesome uses
Nick: but as a full answer? no way
Nick: you look at the Wii Remote (which I think comes much closer to being a full solution) and there are still instances where a regular controller is a much better option
Luke: Yeah, there can be awesome applications like how the Wii Remote introduced awesome applications. The problem is Microsoft didn't show those applications outside of a stupid 3d breakout clone thing and a modded Burnout (in an attempt to appeal to "core gamers") where most people ended up.....crashing into guard rails, other traffic, or into walls
Nick: yup
Nick: right now the tech looks to be an absolute horror to program for
Luke: Maybe they should of called that Burnout demo, Suicidal Burnout ;)
Nick: lol
Luke: Yeah since body movement just like motion controls are so analog when compared to digital button presses
Luke: and everyone has their own thoughts on how to do a specific motion
Nick: yup, a problem Wii developers have been coping with for some time now
Nick: and they have very definitive data to work with
Luke: the developers will obviously program movements how they are accustomed to doing them or try to figure out how other people do them
Nick: absolutely
Luke: Also the EyeToy, PlayStation Eye never really took off as a "gaming platform", also remember how quietly Microsoft brushed the Xbox Vision to the side
Luke: especially how they heavily featured You're in the Movies at one E3 event
Nick: not only did the EyeToy not take off, but it wasn't very much fun to play with
Luke: You're in the movies bombed hard
Luke: both in sales and reviews
Nick: I'm sure this will be a far more in-depth application of the technology, but I think that something even in a baser form should be semi-interesting to play with
Nick: the eye toy was just ... stupid
Luke: I'm just to skeptical because all previous uses of cameras in video game are unsuccessful
Nick: yup
Luke: and Sony's latest PlayStation Eye game, Eye Pet reviews are saying that the game has significant issues like hand gestures not registering properly
Nick: yeah, because all of the data is interpreted, which is never easy to deal with
Luke: and you need to position the camera so that it sees your floor
Luke: part of the issue with camera based games is that you need to set up your room in a very specific way
Nick: As a programmer, I can say that it's important to have constants to rely on, without them it's always a crapshot if things will pan out the way you planned
Luke: I can see that and I think that's partially why some developer use very broad movement recognition on Wii so that people won't get frustrated with their movement not registering properly
Nick: bingo, waggle is an easy solution because it works
Nick: with a camera, what's going to be the easy standby solution?
Luke: don't get me wrong specific movements works usually well on Wii if the game actually teaches you how to perform them properly the problem is that some developers are too lazy to do that
Nick: I don't think it's possible for one to exist
Nick: yup, very true
Luke: I actually remember one EyeToy game developed by Harmonix,I think it was Anti Grav or something like that but the game came with these green gloves where the camera seems to track those gloves since you performed specific moves
Nick: yup, definitive tracking makes it much easier, that's why a peripheral is so important
Nick: I mean, we'll see how the whole thing plays out, but I have a hard time believing that Natal is going to be a runaway success for Microsoft
Nick: especially if it bombs hard, I'm curious to know what MS's plan for next-gen is
Luke: But it might be a run away success for 3rd parties who make terrible Wii attachments because they will have a new platform to flood the market with useless natal plastic controllers :P
Nick: lol
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